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Subject: General Chat Box
Replies: 1502 Views: 28262
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salam05 8.12.08 - 04:54am

As the name show, u can do here what ever u want, irrelevent to other topics. U can also chat here. Anythin irrelevent to other topics. Any info or any announcement, any adverti t related to muslim n islam etc. *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 04:56am
Can i do this chairshot.GIF, lol *

mishy_23 8.12.08 - 05:00am
Wat do you ppl think abt Tableeg Jamaat?? I dont knw y im asking dis bt i just felt lyk asking...i want answeres btw. *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:00am
I guess yes as far as i dont put somebodys eye out with that thing lol *

salam05 8.12.08 - 05:02am
U can't do this as it'll cause some prob between jmi n amu. That is bcz in reply i'll do this punch.GIF *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:02am
I wonder will our more than 100 members post here something or will they just try to learn how to chair shot lol.. *

salam05 8.12.08 - 05:04am
I'll be lazy for sometime. Im busy in work. Im preparin for tomorrow.lol *EID MUBARAK* *

mishy_23 8.12.08 - 05:04am
Cumon i asked sth. . . Or shud i open a different topic? *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:05am
that was not for jmi , it was for our more than 100 members lol to remind them to post something ATLEAST HERE . lol to *

mishy_23 8.12.08 - 05:06am
EID MUBARAK EVERYBODY. Takabal ALLAHU minna wa minkum. *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:08am
Ya ya EID MUBARAK, as far as ur qustn is concerned sistr it is a Loong DEBATE . Believe me it is not that much easy to discuss it all in one line *

mishy_23 8.12.08 - 05:10am
Yea...i know..... *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:22am
I know ahlam's group has started that topic, but i am sorry according 2 me it is worthless to discuss that issue, coz that issue is pin pointing a group which is very active, more over the comments are very harsh . I am sorry once again, *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:27am
It should not have been like what are your views . Oh commonon who am i and who is somebody else i can say they are very rude so does it make them rude, instead that group should hav tried to collect the materials of the authentic sources and looked back into the history and an*lysed how that group was a boon and how a bane and let the reader decide after reading what truth is. *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:39am
But alas what i found there was attacking and provoking arguments, one is saying that it is the best movement ever , another is saying the ONLY best movement, and another saying it is involving a lot of biddah, but to my surprise none of them proved there comments rather offensive arguments which can hurt any one. They just wandered here and there but a clear proof was always missing *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:45am
If we really want to know about this jammat then we need to start from the time of Hazrat maulana zakaria r.a and hazrat maulana illyas r.a who laid the foundation stone of this group , we also need to keep an eye as to how with th passage of time the traditions changed, it will in short take us months of study just to know this jamat , but people have already come to conclusions , i wonder. *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 05:52am
I am not a supporter of tableeg nt opposite of it , neither i want to indulge myself in it coz instructions are clear , Allah swt said , O! You believe obey Allah swt and the messenger pbuh so that you may attain mercy.

One more thing we should follow the middle path and if some organisation is doing something good then let us overlook the small mistakes it commits so that Allah swt might overlook our mistakes on the day of judgement *

salam05 8.12.08 - 05:58am
I wan't to reply. But i fear it will be much long. I thing i need to write first then i'll add it here. That'll be my viewpoint. And i want to know others viewpoint also. Till then my short reply is 'No Jama'at is free from error in this time'. *

mishy_23 8.12.08 - 06:01am
I agree completely with bro salam. I did not say dat tableeg is bad but i hav my right 2 say dat it has bid'ah kaz to tell u da truth, i was influenced by tableeg at one phase of my life.... *

salam05 8.12.08 - 10:46am
Now, here is my response. These things i know about some groups. I'll not go in detail. And these conclusion i got from my reading n understandin some groups. I'll not present any odd thing. No one is perfect. And even i m not better then them than also i m showin this to those who think about there groups to be like army sent by Prophet PBUH.

I don't want to go in detail. But i can easily say that there is no movement which i know of which is perfectly on the right. Some of the groups involv in higher mistakes then other.
Like Jamat Islami, they hav a good intention to implement the Deen. But they are not so serious in practicin Sunnah. One of the Aalim from Ahle Hadith Jama'at asked Mawlana Mawdudi (rah.) during his lecture, ''u talk about implementing Shari'ah n Sunnah, but u didn't do Rafa' Yadayn which is the established Sunnah of our Prophet PBUH.'' Maulana Maududi answered, ''Log Rafa' Yadayn ki wajh se bidak jatey hai, isliye Jamat ke sath nahi karta hu. Jab tahajjud padhta hu to karta hu.'' i.e. Ppl becam angry to see Rafa' Yadayn thats why i didn't do during Jama'at. But during Tahajjud i used to do it.
I mean they r serious about Khilafah but they arent serious in practicin Sunnah. Another thing they parti t much in Politics even if it is the Politics related to Taghooti democracy.

Also, they hav the prob like hero worship. They r not ready to accept the mistakes of some scholars like Mawlana Mawdudi etc. (He has done a big mistakes regardin the Sahaba n used some harsh words to them in his book Khilafa wa Mulukiyah, and Sayyid Qutb followed him in this). *

salam05 8.12.08 - 10:48am
Now come to Tableeghi Jama'at. They hav some serious problems. First problem, which is common in most of groups i.e. Hero Worship. They don't want to accept the mistakes in the books of their elder. The Nisaab of Tabligh Jamat is Faza'ile A'amal. It contains lots of fabricated hadith n lots of story which contradict the rulin of Shari'ah. But still its included in the Nisaab. There wud be no problem if they start teachin 'Muntakhab Ahadeeth' or 'Hayat as-Sahaba' by Maulana Yusuf Kandhalvi, instead of Fada'il A'amal. Both r good books specially the former one.
Secondly, Tablighi Jama'at didn't care about Grav worshippers etc. They don't teach to oppose it in Jamat not even knowledgeabl one teach that in congregation. They only talk about Namaz. Talking about prayer is not bad. They don't even teach how to refute the kufri theology like of Qadiyani. Bcz of this many ppl r going to the group of Apostates Qadiyanis even in the Deoband. I don't know any effort of them in response to Qadiyani, Munkir Hadith, Rawafidh, Mu'atazila (Materialists). Anyway the good thing about them is that they r one of the most successful group in muslim world. Many ppl start prayin, n practicin Islam.
But many ppl also becam materialist in their mind due to lack of attention to it. *

salam05 8.12.08 - 10:51am
Another group Salafi/Ahle Hadith, is also one of the activ group in the world.
They hav a problem of refuting scholars on small issue. Many of them use harsh word towards scholars for their mistakes. Refuting someone for their mistakes is not bad, it is necessary. But it should be in the way that is good, not with bad words.
Also they care much about fiqh issue like Rafa' Yadayn etc. If u ask a layman of them about Rafa' Yadayn, he'll produce most of the hadith in front of u like a machine. But if u ask him about 'Where is Allah?' or 'Does Allah hav a hand or not' or 'what type of hand He has'. Most of them will not b able to reply. Though these question r much related to Aqidah. In short they hav less work in Aqeedah but loads of work in fiqh.
Btw, the good about them is They don't try to defend any established mistakes of their Elders. If u prov to them any mistakes of their scholars they'll accept it.
Another thing is that they didn't tolerat any heretical groups. They hav loads of work against Qadiyaniyyat, Rawafiwidh, Quburi, Munkir Hadith etc almost all misguided groups. Actually, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani died bcz of Mubahala (i.e. A type of Du'a which both group do for each other, its in Ale Imran) taken place between him and Maulana Sana'ullah Amritsari (rah.).
So, in short all group hav some wrong. Some hav huge mistakes some hav lesser. But no one is 100% on perfect path. *

salam05 8.12.08 - 11:04am
That is the conclusion of all that i know about these groups. I only discussed those groups which r increasing with high rate. I hav discussed some group like Takfiris, and some deviant groups like Qadiyani, Brelavi etc.

And all that i say is in general. It may not apply to each n every individuals of the groups. I said that things which r common among those groups. I m not saying anythin by hearin from others.
I took all those things from these groups which r good. I hav restricted myself to one group. Read from all if u r able to face disagreement among the Ummah.

Wallahul Musta'aan

Wassalamu'alaykum *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 12:59pm
U said all what i wanted to say, Jazakallah bro i am in support of your ideas. *

mishy_23 8.12.08 - 02:37pm
Alhamdulillah. Datz very well said. MashaALLAH. *

ayyad 8.12.08 - 03:19pm
I agree no grp or movement is perfect bro!believe me i hav been wid jamate islami ahle hadeeth as wel!i hav known their history!i respect them as long as deen is benefited!that is y i said one f the best movement nt the best movement! *

hamza08 8.12.08 - 03:30pm
Well i think someone said THE ONE AND THE ONLY BEST MOMENT IN RECENT TIMES, anyways it was not you i know , well EID MUBARAK brother, you dont seem 2 be active here , where were you all the days *

ayyad 8.12.08 - 03:55pm
Eid mubarak to u bro!wel i was busy with family and some patients!u ppl r doing gr8 job here!may Allah bless u all *

salam05 9.12.08 - 08:09am
Bro, its not a right logic to give a group superiority over other. By this i can also easily claim that, i've been wid Barelavi then Tableeghi and at last Ahle Hadith. I also know the history. I've read the book of them. I was, in my childhood, a Grav Worshiper. I leav it AlHamduLillah. Then i go two of the three groups i've mentioned above. And at last i come to conclusion that which u can read in my above comments.

Yes ur right that Tablighi Jamat hav done good job. And, Wallaah, there intention is pure. I m sure about that. But the fact is that it'll benefit muslims in one some matter. U know the main branch of Islam is Iman n there is no Iman without Tawheed. Here in Delhi, Tablighi Jamat hav the main centre. We called it Markaz. Its a main centre of the world of Tablighi Jamat. Some meter away from it exist the Mazar of Shaykh Nizamuddin, where Muslim n Non-muslim come n prostrat on the graves. Now if u teach them Salaah then what is the significance of it. Whats the significance of Salah without tawheed.
U go back in the history. How Prophet PBUH preach to those who hav r polytheist. Did he preach Salah or how to make Halaqa or how to hold the Miswak? Ppl should be trained in how to preach Islamic Monotheism. U can also preach about Salaah but to those who need it.

There is a need to a modification in the rules of Tableeghi Jamat. I was prev a strict Ahle Hadith. But AlHamduLillah, now i've started to look into any matter with balanced approach. And i pray to Allah to guide me to the Truth. *

salam05 9.12.08 - 08:32am
By the way, there is no Jamat (which i've mentioned) who is unsuccessful in their Da'wah. Jamat Islami also got success n progress in puttin the concept of Hakimiyah of Allah in the mind of youth. And this concept is one of the main concept in Qur'an which now we r leaving. Allah says: ''wa man lam yahkum bima anzalallahu fa ulaa'ika humul Kafirun'' i.e. And those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed then they are Kaffirs. (tawbah).
Ahle Hadith is also successful in their Da'wah. One who live in India knows that how it is difficult to Preach monotheism in the places like Bareli n most of the place of north india. But they r doing n they r highly successful to stop grav worship from many places. And their work in hadith is incredible. It is great that, scholars of this small group has written commentery of Mishkat, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasa'i etc which are referred by even Arab Scholars. Even one of Hanafi scholar said that it is bcz Ahle Hadith Jamat that ppl becam serious in reading hadith. Otherwise the styl of teachin was not very great here before. Aalim neva read more than Mashariqul Anwar or in high cases Mishkat. There r many proofs from historical books exist about this.

That doesn't mean they hav no wrong tendencies. They hav like Tabligh Jamat.

I commented in this detail bcz i belive that there is need to modify the rules of Tabligh.
Who knows one who is nearer to the elders, after readin this, told them about this and then they start thinkin on it. Who knows?
May Allah help us to reciev all goods n abstain from all evils.

Wassalaam *

ayyad 9.12.08 - 09:24am
I kno bro that they need changes and slowly they r doing it like reading the saheh ahadeeth instead just reading fazaile amaal!its happening slowly!as far as monotheism the first sifaat out of six is tawheed and sm elders hav started going to the darga for gasht and results are showing!and many ppl hav corrected their akeeda atleast in my town!i kno other grps are also doin gud job but i stil think tableegi jamaat r better organised! *

salam05 9.12.08 - 09:34am
Thats good bro, Al Hamdu Lillah.

I hope we'll unite one day, Insha Allah. Jazakallah Khayr. *

salam05 9.12.08 - 09:38am
I think now we should stop this group issue, at least for sometime.

Anyway whats the next issue. Surely i don't want any more chairshot on my head. So what any other issue which we can discuss... *

ayyad 9.12.08 - 10:29am
Wel i heard an alim tellin that as far as masail r concerned only saheh ahadeeth should b followed but as far as fazail r concerned u can quote dhaeef ahadeeth as wel as long its nt fabricated *

ayyad 9.12.08 - 10:32am
I wanna know more about this issue! *

mishy_23 9.12.08 - 04:16pm
how can we refer to sth dat our Prophet (S.A.W) never did?? It sounds weird... *

mishy_23 9.12.08 - 04:19pm
I mean da sanad of da'if Hadith is inaccurate n it dosnt qualify 2 be Sahih, so how can we use it? *

salam05 10.12.08 - 04:47am
My dear bro n sis, please pray 4 me. I m sufferin due to fever. Pray 4 me so that i can join u all again.
Wassalaam *

ayyad 10.12.08 - 05:49am
May Allah swt give u shifa!aameen *

hamza08 10.12.08 - 06:27am
a'ameen *

mishy_23 10.12.08 - 07:18am
Ameen. May Allah return u to best of health and makes dis fever a way of purifying u. Ameen. *

salam05 11.12.08 - 06:51am
Al-Hamdu Lillah im feelin better now. Jazakumullah 4 Du'a.
Well, i've a book on the issue of weak narration accepted in Fada'il or not. That book is in Urdu. Its a good scholarly book and an unbiased research has been done in it. I'll reply the question of bro Ayyad with the help of that book. Insha Allah. *

ayyad 11.12.08 - 09:05am
Sis mishy a dhaeef hadeeth doesnt nt necessararily mean its a wrong or fabricated hadeeth!it just means that there may b missing links in chain f narration!ALLAH knows best *

salam05 11.12.08 - 12:39pm
Well, there is disagreement among the scholars in this topic. Some say u can act on weak hadith in case of Fada'il i.e. Good deeds. Another group of scholars say u cannot act on weak narrations in any case. Majority of scholars says you can act on weak narration in case of Fada'il if it is not Fabricated nor very weak (there is much differece between weak i.e. Da'eef and Very weak i.e. Da'eef Jiddan). Among these scholars r Imam ibn Mahdi, Ahmed ibn Hambal, Ibn Mubarak (rahimahumullah) etc among the Salaf. And among the Khalaf who had this opinion r: Imam Baihaqi, Ibn Abdul Barr, Imam Nawawi, Suyuti, Iraqi, Ala'uddin al-Haskafi, Ibn al-Hammam, Ibn Hajar Haytami, ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Mulla Ali Qari and a long list of scholars.
The other opinion that weak narration will not b accepted in any case. This opinion is the view of a minority of scholars among those r: Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Yahya ibn Mu'een, Ibn Hazm, Ibn al-Arabi alMaliki, Abu Shama alMaqdisi, Ibn Taymiyyah, Shatibee, Shawkani, Khatib Baghdadee etc among the famous scholars in the past.
So there is huge disagreement among the scholars. But remember those who say that u can act on weak narration in Fada'il, they give some condition for that. Some condition which was given by Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-asqalani, are:
1. The hadith should not be fabricated or very weak.
2. There should be a basis of that hadith. It means it should somewhat supported by other narrations.
3. While acting on those narration, it should not be believed that it is Sunnah.

These r some condition given by scholars like Ibn Hajar, Suyuti, Sakhawi etc. Some other scholars has given some other conditions like u can't preach it in public, rather u can act on it personally.
Now it is not easy for any lay person to verify the hadith accordin to abov conditions. So if u act on weak hadith accordin to above three condition, u'll automatically come to the second opinion i.e. Weak hadith will not be accepted in any case. *

salam05 11.12.08 - 12:59pm
So you can act on weak narrations in Fada'il personally without havin the belief that it is Sunnah. Bcz Prophet PBUH said: ''Man Qaal Alayy ma lam aqul fal yatabawwa' maq'adahu minannar'' i.e. One says on me which i never said, he should make his place in the Fire.
This is the strict warning from Prophet PBUH. We should be careful about that. Weak hadith hav some defects like: there is problem in the Hifz of narrator, missing link in the chain as brother said, tadlees of narrator (another topic) etc. So there is no surety if it is said by Prophet PBUH or not. Thats why if u wan't to act on it then act personally or if u wan't to tell anyone then also tell him that this is weak hadith. This is allowed. Actually the condition r so strict that it is very difficult for a lay person to act according to it. Thats why Imam ibn Taymiyyah said: ''All hadith about Fada'il r doubtful except the hadith of Bukhari, Muslim and Tirmidhi.''
Among the books of Six Sahih books (sihah sittah) the above three r only Jami'. Means they include all type of hadith includin Fada'il. Other three r mostly Ahkam based books.

Actually it is easy for a lay person like us to act on the opinion of Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaykh Albani. And this is the safest way if u consider the above mentioned hadith of Prophet PBUH. *

salam05 11.12.08 - 01:09pm
Simply, it wud be better to choose hadith of Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari, Tirmidhi. In those books there are much hadith about Fada'il then any other.

Note1:- I've mentioned all opinion of scholars without references bcz of fear that it wud becom very heavy. If anyone wants reference of some specific qoute then i can give. Insha Allah.

Note2:- I hav mentioned all above rules as a general. The book Tableeghi Nisab i.e. Fadail A'amal has not been criticized for weak hadith rather it is criticized bcz of fabricated hadith and some stories of Sufiya which is in clear contradiction of islamic monotheism. Allahu A'alam Wallahul Musta'an *

ayyad 11.12.08 - 01:36pm
agree.GIFbro! *

mishy_23 11.12.08 - 07:12pm
thumbs_up.GIF rightly said bro! I wish i cud get da buk in english...watz da name of it btw? *

salam05 11.12.08 - 07:28pm
Its not in english, as far as i know. Its written in Urdu. The writer's name is Ghazi Uzayr. There may be other books in english on this issue. Actually, there r very less work has been done in english language. U can't find most of the research book in english. Most of them r in Arabic. Then i think in Urdu. *

salam05 11.12.08 - 07:31pm
Check the files.. I've added some images of scholars in the 'great personalities' folder. Some images r not in good condition but its sufficient till i found others. *

mishy_23 11.12.08 - 07:52pm
Dere r many books in english, Alhamdulillah! Mostly translated ofcourse nd books of nowadays scholars. Bt obviously to learn our Deen, we need to learn Arabic. *

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